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From: ????????????????????????
Subject: Pipes Digest #109 - September 3, 1993

		Pipes Digest #109 - September 3, 1993

Welcome to a new member:

	Neil Flatter   		(???????????????????????????)

And the big news is that the RFD for the tobacco newsgroups has gone
out to news.groups. See Colin Crist's message (the last one in this
Digest.) And join us there for the fun!

BTW, Norm posts an urgent appeal for postings NOT relating to the
fine-tobacco newsgroup :-) Can anyone help him out? 

With that in mind, I'd suggest that we take discussion of the f-t
newsgroup to news.groups itself, reserving the Pipes Mailgroup and
Colin's list for discussions of tactics. Or to just light up your
favorite Dunhill (gee, it can be a cigar OR a pipe, so I'm safe! :-),
relax, and chew the rag in a friendly, if somewhat visible,
atmosphere. -S.


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From: Martin A. Lodahl <??????????????????????????>
Subject: Re: Yep, The Newsgroup

Steve,

Concerning the newsgroup proposal, you said:

> [ Don't be down, Martin. Yes, it'll be an uphill struggle, but one
> worth struggling for. -S. ]

I wonder.  You've done a superb job with this mailgroup, and the
level of discussion on it is far beyond anything I've seen on
Usenet.  A newsgroup is just too accessible to the idiot fringe.  I
suspect the folks who say "ignore them;  they'll go away" haven't
seen really determined bigots in action, and aren't paying for their
newsfeeds (neither am I, but some folks are).  As I learned in the
case of Homebrew Digest, wider circulation is a mixed blessing, at
best.

I hope you plan to keep the Digest going, whatever the fate of the
Newsgroup? 

	- Martin

[ I think moderating the group will remove the idiot fringe, Martin.
But I will indeed keep the Pipes Mailgroup running, regardless of the
vote. And thanks. -S. ]


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From: ???????????????????????????? (Norm Carpenter x3055)
Subject: So Ya wanna be a newsgroup :->

Hi all,

Just my $0.02 on this newsgroup thing.  It's okay and I'll support
it come vote time,  but it will never replace the mail group in
my opinion.  Can you imagine 16 followups to one of Bill Thacker's
stories of pipes lore?  All the anti-smokers and historians will
flame forever -- who needs the hassle.

The only good that may come of it is that we will have an avenue to
advertise the mailgroup and continue to enjoy a growing membership
of serious pipe people.

>From my point of view,  when I light up a pipe it is a time to
reflect,  to think,  to quietly drift off in a world of my own.
I don't want to cloud this most peaceful time with questions about
the ill effects of tobacco.  I already know all of this,  and most
everything else that the media jumps on to tell us is unhealthy.
I want to know how to keep the moisture out of my pipe,  what 
blends I should try,  the advantadges of a good meersheim (sp), et. al.

Like I said,  I'll support the group in the vote and see what happens,
but I'll probably flake out of it in a while.  If you are really
interested in getting the newsgroup going,  I would suggest a very
vague euphanism for smoking be used as the group name.  Something
like rec.churchil (Famous smoking statesm and and also the name of
a cigar).   This way,  the occasional zealot who roams through the
newsgroup file won't find smoke or tobacco and will not make the
connection.  Hey,  how about rec.light-up?  rec.SwanVestas?

Where the hell is Bill anyway,  I'm getting bored with this discussion
(although I must admit it's nice to have this much traffic in the
newletter lately).  I've been wondering if he knows how the discovery
of Briar came about,  and who first introduced this material to the
world.

For you more serious types;  tell me how to keep the moisture out of
my pipe (short of sticking cotton balls in my mouth)?

Till later (let me know where I vote)

Norm

[ At the risk of boring you still further, Norm, I think what happens
in the next two months might give Bill some material for his war
stories :-) See my comments at the top of the Digest. -S. ]


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From: Colin Crist <???????????????????>
Subject: Here we go...

All,

As promised, I shall today be starting an attempt to form two newsgroups.

1.	rec.fine-tobacco: lightly moderated - mainly automatic with a
	group of moderators (Andy, Steve and myself at present) who
	shall be forwarded possibly unsuitable articles.

2.	talk.politics.smoking: unmoderated group. Hopefully it will
	take most of the flames during formation and give some cover
	for the main group !!

Thanks for everyones support and ideas so far, if you would inform
colleagues who have expressed an interest to watch out for the
discussion and votes (I'll let you all know when) and participate
(positively please!).

I'll keep you informed of what's going on....

Colin.

(Andy - this is my first newsgroup forming attempt, as you said that
 you were involved in one before, could you send me any info and perhaps
 some help ? Cheers - Colin.)


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From: ????????????????????????

It is a bit difficult for me to understand the discussions you have
about the new mailgroup.  Do you have to apply through a certain
procedure to start a group?  Are the names/addresses of the mailgroups
`posted' somewhere so the `antis' can poke in?

I am interested in subscribing to a few magazines about pipes, since it
is not easy to get any info about pipes here in Taiwan.  Can anyone
kindly help me out?  Thanks.

[ See the Resource Guide; you should have received a copy. If not, let
me know. -S. ]

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From: Neil Flatter <???????????????????????????>
Subject: pipe mail group

????????????????? (James Taranto) wrote requesting people interested
in starting a discussion or a newsgroup on cigars to respond to this
address.  I have been smoking a pipe for almost ten years and would
be interested in joining your pipe mail group.  As far as the cigars
go, I smoke a cigar about once a month so my tastes are still crude.
Being able to gather information about pipes, cigars, and related
tobaccoo hobbies would be of interest to me.
--------------
  Neil Flatter                 Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
  Chemistry - Math (CMA)       Department of Chemistry
  Novell Supervisor            Chemistry Stockroom Manager
  ???????????????????????????      (812) 877 - 8316


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From: Colin Crist <???????????????????>
Subject: Current situation

All,

I have posted a CFD to the powers that be for rec.fine-tobacco and 
talk.politics.tobacco. When/if they approve then the discussion will
follow-up on news.groups. I also copied the CFD to rec.food.drink as
quite a lot of interest has stemmed from there.

I'll let you all know when I hear anything - when I do could Steve
send the information to his mail group ?

I suggest that we be prepared for a fair amount of flames - although
in the propsed charter I explicitly stated that rec.fine-tobacco is
for the discussion of enjoying tobacco by enlightened people in 
moderation !! I think I'm right in saying that long discussions about
Marlboro or rolling non-tobacco consumables would not be welcome - 
there are other newgroups for such things !

Cheers,
	Colin.

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From: Colin Crist <???????????????????>
Subject: Re: Current situation

Steve,

I figured that if I make *very* clear that the group is for more
enlightened smokers - those that take enjoyment of it and are
aware of the dangers, not really for the 40 a day Marlboro man, 
then the flames should be minimised and our chances of the
group becoming a reality are increased.

There are plenty of alcohol related groups - why not a tobacco
related one ?

Colin.

Oh - a warning to anyone traveling to the Czech Republic. Don't
attempt the local tobacco or cigarettes, they are quite incredibly
disgusting ! Even worse than Russian ones !

[ Thanks for the warning, Colin! I think we have one .cz address in
the newsgroup now, though... -S. ]

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From: ????????????????????????? (Steve Masticola)
Subject: Re: Current situation

> I figured that if I make *very* clear that the group is for more
> enlightened smokers - those that take enjoyment of it and are
> aware of the dangers, not really for the 40 a day Marlboro man, 
> then the flames should be minimised and our chances of the
> group becoming a reality are increased.

True, but then again, remember the wars around Mazur's proposal for
rec.pipes. That one clearly was aimed at pipe smokers and not the
two-pack-a-day cowboy, but it still went down in flames.

Perhaps we should set up a strategy? I think there's a great danger of
getting bogged down in flame wars. I've tried to draw up a list of
points to reiterate when the flames come. Perhaps we can use the
"broken record" approach to resist the flamage.

- rec.fine-tobacco is aimed at enlightened smokers who:

	* Enjoy the moderate and considerate use of fine tobacco;
	* Smoke to appreciate fine tobacco, rather than out of
	  addiction; 
	* Recognize that tobacco smoking carries potential danger to
	  themselves and others;
	* Respect the rights of others who do not wish to be exposed
	  to tobacco smoke.

- Other newsgroups already exist within the rec. hierarchy which are
dedicated to controversial and/or dangerous activities. These groups
include, but are not limited to, the following:

	* rec.hunting:		Posession and use of deadly weapons.
	* rec.guns:

	* rec.pyrotechnics:	Construction and use of rockets,
	* rec.models.rockets:	firecrackers, and the like.

	* rec.food.drink: 	Consumption of alcohol.

	* rec.gambling:		Gambling.

	* rec.motorcycles:	Potentially dangerous sports.
	* rec.autos.sport:
	* rec.aviation.homebuilt:
	* rec.skydiving:
	* rec.scuba:
	* etc.

	* rec.nude		Prurient interest.

	* rec.arts.bodyart:	Social stigmata and bloodborne disease
				risks. 

These groups have a right to exist, as demonstrated by the fact that
they were created and now do exist. If these groups have a right to
exist, then so does rec.fine-tobacco.

- Nonsmokers who disapprove of smoking can post their disapproval
almost anywhere on the net without fear of harassment. The existence
of rec.fine-tobacco will not prevent them from continuing to do so.

- Nonsmokers have the right not to subscribe to rec.fine-tobacco if
they feel the group would offend them.

- However, _enlightened_ nonsmokers acknowledge that:

	* Other adults have a right to make their own informed
	  decisions regarding whether they will be smokers or
	  nonsmokers;  
	* Other adults have a right to enjoy fine tobacco as long as
	  they are considerate of others and obey the law;
	* Other adults have a right to engage in free speech among
	  themselves, free from harassment;
	* The acknowledgement of the above rights of adults does not
	  detract from their own rights.


How does this look? Complete enough? Too complete? Will it do any
good? Do you have any other tactical ideas?

> Oh - a warning to anyone traveling to the Czech Republic. Don't
> attempt the local tobacco or cigarettes, they are quite incredibly
> disgusting ! Even worse than Russian ones !

I'll make sure to avoid them! (Actually, I haven't smoked a cigarette
in the past ten years, so no danger! :-)

- Steve (????????????????????????).


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From: ?????????????? (Joe L. Reda)
Subject: Re: Pipes Digest #108 - August 31, 1993

Steve et al.,

I say (IMHO) let's go ahead with the proposed newsgroup.  Yes, the 
flames will be fierce.  It will probably take more than one try.
But --  how many times are we told "The Internet is for the Free
Discussion of Ideas" etc. etc. etc. and so forth?  Free speech does
include letting those you disagree with have their say, and it seems
like the flamers could be met with that point.  After all, we're not
asking them to light up a Butera or a Partagas (although it might 
help 'em if they did!) -- we just want a newsgroup!

\\Joe (strapping on the flame-repllent suit and picking up his
       flamethrower)


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From: Colin Crist <???????????????????>
Subject: We're off !!

Take a look at news.groups...

Our discussion has started....

Colin.


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 )				       *   *				  )
( Pipe smokers will rule the world!      *   ??????????????????????	 (
 ) (if they don't run out of matches...) *   Steve Masticola, moderator	  )
(				       *   *				 (
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Article Index

  1. Subject: Pipes Digest #109 - September 3, 1993
  2. Subject: Re: Yep, The Newsgroup
  3. Subject: So Ya wanna be a newsgroup :->
  4. Subject: Here we go...
  5. Subject: pipe mail group
  6. Subject: Current situation
  7. Subject: Re: Current situation
  8. Subject: Re: Current situation
  9. Subject: Re: Pipes Digest #108 - August 31, 1993
  10. Subject: We're off !!
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