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From: ????????????????????????
Subject: Pipes Digest #114 - October 5, 1993

		 Pipes Digest #114 - October 5, 1993


Welcome to new members:

	Tom Zweng, M.D.		(?????????????????????)
	Michael Wolff		(????????????????????????????)

And you may have noticed that there is no Pipes Digest #113. This is
to avoid bad luck on the rec.tobacco newsgroup call for votes, which
follows immediately. We've also got a shaggy-dog story from David
Urbanski, and a cigar report from Wade Corbett.

Wish us luck, and please don't forget to vote!

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From: ??????????????????? (Mark James)
Date: 5 Oct 1993 11:13:55 -0400
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,alt.drugs,rec.food.drink
Subject: CFV: rec.tobacco

                      1st CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
                     Moderated group rec.tobacco

Newsgroups line:
rec.tobacco		Fine tobaccos, cigars, pipes, collecting. (Moderated)

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 26 Oct 1993.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  For voting
questions only, contact Mark James <???????????????????>.  For questions
about the proposed group, contact any of the proposed moderators.

This CFV is also being sent to the Pipes mailing list 


The group would be moderated on a rotating basis by the following

Colin Crist		(???????????????????)
Steve Masticola		(????????????????????????)
Andrew Tepper		([email protected])

CHARTER:  The following statement is taken from the proposers.

The rec.tobacco newsgroup provides a forum for discussing the moderate
use and appreciation of fine tobacco, including cigars, pipes, quality
cigarettes, pipe making and carving, snuff, collectible tobacciana,
publications, and related topics. The group is lightly moderated to
prevent flame (except for the purpose of lighting up.)

1.  Etiquette and Moderation Policy

The readers of, and submitters to, rec.tobacco are assumed by this
charter to be mature adults, who can make their own informed choices
regarding tobacco, who are aware of the potential risks of excessive
tobacco use, and who respect the wishes and rights of others, whether
they are smokers or nonsmokers.  Other readers and submitters should
also make the same assumptions.

Rec.tobacco is specifically _not_ a forum for the debate of smoking
versus antismoking issues, bashing, flamage, morality lectures, etc.
Submitters wishing to initiate such discussions will be directed by
the moderators to whatever other newsgroup they deem appropriate.

The purpose of rec.tobacco is to facilitate communication among
fine-tobacco aficionados, not to deny it to others. The moderators
will periodically post a "Frequently Asked Questions" (FAQ) message to
the group, to inform the readers (among other things) of the
newsgroups to which the submitters of bounced messages are suggested
to repost.

2.  Rationale

In brief, there is currently no newsgroup in which those who
appreciate fine tobaccos can gather to discuss their hobby, and
significant demand has been demonstrated for such a group. The
100-plus members of the moderated Pipes Mailgroup
(??????????????????????), and discussions on rec.food.drink and in
news.groups, show that the demand exists for a fine-tobacco newsgroup.

The rec.food.drink discussions, and Elias Mazur's earlier discussions
on news.groups (in 1989, regarding a "rec.pipes" proposal), further
demonstrated that moderation of the group would be needed to prevent
excessive flamage.

The name "rec.tobacco" was chosen after considering many alternative
proposals, in detailed discussion on news.groups and off-line.
Extensive efforts to find a third-level name for the group, and many
suggestions for a third-level name, did not produce a completely
satisfactory result. The name we propose also permits splits, should
the need arise. While "rec.tobacco" is a compromise, we feel that it
is a necessary, and a satisfactory, one.

3.  Special Notes

The following is information for voters, and is not part of the
permanent charter.

Smoking is a controversial, hot-button issue, about which many people
have strong opinions. Many nonsmokers have valid objections to smokers
who do not consider their rights. They are perfectly correct in
objecting to rude behavior. We support their right to object; we also
support mature, considerate behavior on the part of smokers.

However, regardless of one's personal stance on smoking, we believe
that thoughtful people should not vote against this (or any other)
newsgroup simply because they personally disapprove of the subject
matter.  Rather, we hope that the voters will remember the two basic
issues behind newsgroup creation: (a) whether the charter is
well-formed, and (b) whether sufficient interest exists in the subject
of the group.  (The latter is discussed later in the Rationale.) We
hope that you will judge the group on this basis, and on no other.

Along with the proposal for rec.tobacco, we are simultaneously
proposing an unmoderated group, "talk.politics.smoking," for
discussion of the political, legal, health, and social issues
surrounding smoking. The CFV for talk.politics.smoking should also be
posted in the group in which you are reading this. Regardless of
whether talk.politics.smoking passes, there are other (if somewhat
less appropriate) places on the Net for such discussion.  We do not
wish to, and in fact can not, deny anyone their right to speak their
mind on smoking issues.

We simply wish our own place to enjoy and discuss our hobby, in
moderation, and in peace.


You should send E-MAIL (posts to a group are invalid) to:


(just replying by MAIL to this message should work).  Your mail
message should contain one and only one of the following statements:

      I vote YES on rec.tobacco
      I vote NO on rec.tobacco

You may add a comment, or use other wording, but anything other than 
a definite, unconditional, unambiguous statement for or against the
creation of rec.tobacco will be rejected.

If you later change your mind you may vote again; only your last valid
vote will count.  You may also send in an "abstain" vote in the same 
manner, using "abstain" in place of "yes" or "no".  This will cancel
any previous vote.

All votes will be acknowledged by E-mail.  If you don't receive an
acknowledgment within a few days of your vote, vote again.  A list of
any acknowledgment messages that bounce back to me will be posted in a
second Call for Votes article.  (CFV articles will *not* otherwise
contain mass vote acknowledgments.)  The complete vote list will be
posted with the vote result.

Standard Guidelines for voting apply: no more than one vote per person,
no more than one vote per account.  The requirements for group creation
are 100 more YES votes than NO votes, and 2/3 of all votes being YES. 
Mark James  <???????????????????>    *** Opinions, errors etc are mine. ***
Dialogic Corporation, 300 Littleton Road    | "Grown-ups are just obsolete
Parsippany NJ 07054, U.S.A.                 |  children, and the hell with
+1 201 334 1268 ext 438  Fax +1 201 334 1257|  them."  -- Dr. Seuss

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From: ????????????????????? (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: CFV: talk.politics.smoking
Date: 5 Oct 1993 11:09:45 -0400

                      1st CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
Unmoderated group talk.politics.smoking
Newsgroups line:   
talk.politics.smoking	Smoker/nonsmoker issues and discussion.

Votes must be recieved by 23:59:59 GMT, 26 Oct 1993.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  For voting
questions only, contact <?????????????????????>.  For questions about
the proposed group, contact the group's proposer, Steve Masticola


  The talk.politics.smoking newsgroup provides an open forum for
  discussing the political, legal, health, and ethical issues related to
  tobacco smoking. This charter specifically remains neutral on these


  The readers of, and submitters to, talk.politics.smoking are assumed by
  this charter to be mature adults, who can make their own informed
  choices regarding smoking, and who respect the wishes and rights of
  others, whether they are smokers or nonsmokers. Other readers and
  submitters should also make the same assumptions. Ad hominem attacks,
  bashing, flamage, morality lectures, etc. are specifically discouraged
  by this charter.


  In brief, there is currently no newsgroup which is specifically
  dedicated to the issues surrounding tobacco smoking. Discussions on
  this topic periodically appear in almost every newsgroup on the Net,
  and are, for the most part, inappropriate to the group in which they
  appear. A specific, designated place for discussions on
  smoking/nonsmoking issues is badly needed on the Net. Discussion in
  news.groups on the creation of talk.politics.smoking has been mostly


You should send MAIL (posts to a group are invalid) to


(just replying by MAIL to this posting should work, *if* your
newsreader honors the "Reply-To" line in the article header). Votes
sent to other addresses will be discarded.  Your mail message should
contain one and only one of the following statements:

      I vote YES on talk.politics.smoking
      I vote NO on talk.politics.smoking
      I vote ABSTAIN talk.politics.smoking

You may add a comment, but anything other than a definite statement
involving the group name and "yes", "no", "for", or "against" on a
single line may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program.
If you later change your mind you may send in another vote, which will
automatically supercede all previous votes. "ABSTAIN" votes serve to
cancel previous votes.

Standard Guidelines for voting apply.  For the group to be created,
100 more YES votes than NO votes must be cast, and 2/3 of all valid
votes must be YES votes. "ABSTAIN" votes are not counted in either
calculation; their only role is to cancel previous votes. A single
user may send no more than one vote, no matter how many accounts he or
she might have. Furthermore, a single account may cast only one vote,
no matter how many users may share that account.

Every vote will be acknowledged by EMail. The CFV will be repeated
once; the 2d CFV will contain a "bounce-ack", i.e. a list of people
whose ACK messages bounced when I sent them.

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From: ????????????????????????????
Subject: A story.

	Greetings from Milwaukee.

	You know, you can always tell which way the wind is blowing
downtown, because of the smell in the air.  Actually, it's hard to
tell now if it's coming out of the North, since they took down the
chocolate factory.  When it's out of the East, we can smell the river
- and anything floating therein.  When it's out of the South, we have
the good fortune of catching wind of the progress that they're making
at the tanneries.  (I try to go on a short retreat - anywhere - when
it's out of the South.)  Out of the Southwest we've got a smell that
the people of Milwaukee are divided on - yeast.  Some people like it,
some people don't.  I kind of like it, but it's a lot like listening
to my mother talk: too much makes my head hurt.  (Don't get me wrong -
I love my mother.  If it weren't for her, I never would have tasted a
Guinness or smoked a pipe.)

	Now then, I've got a story to tell, so buckle down and loosen
up.  I have this friend.  Iggy.  His full name is Ignatious Podowa.
No one knows what nationality he is, and most of us are afraid to ask.
He looks a little like an iguana, but he certainly doesn't act like
one, so we just leave his appearances alone, if you know what I mean.
Children are afraid to touch him.  We're not sure why.  He always has
a cigar in his mouth.  I've tried to get him to try a pipe, but he
can't take the cigars out long enough to light a pipe.  That's okay by
me, because I don't want anybody smoking a pipe who doesn't want to,
who can't appreciate it to the fullest.

	Well, now sure enough Iggy wanted to get a dog.  He's not
married, so we all thought it would do him some good.  If children
won't touch him, maybe a dog will.  Or so we thought.  He and I and
Bob Stillman, who can never go ten minutes before he's got to find
toilet, went out in search of a dog for Iggy.  We tried all of the pet
stores.  This didn't work too well, because whenever he went into the
store, all of the birds would start shouting.  I think I even heard
one of the talking birds shout a curse to God.  I assumed it was
cursing God for the life of Iggy.  I was a bit scandalized.  There was
a second problem too.  Whenever Iggy went to pick up one of the dogs,
if there were children in the store, which there almost always were,
they'd cry, as if Iggy were there to rip the little puppies apart.  I
don't think that was ever his intention, although I never asked him.

	Well, we got to the end of our list of places to look at dogs,
when there was only one left.  Iggy had gone through the whole list,
going from place to place with us, never finding a suitable dog.
Either he didn't like the dog, or, more frequently, the dog didn't
like him.  Some of the last few were private homes.  Many of the
people didn't want to let us in once they got a look at Iggy.  This
was sort of a problem, because Bob Stillman had to use a water-closet
pretty badly by the second of third house.  We had a plan to let Bob
go to the door first, petition for the use of the bathroom, whereafter
Iggy and I would stroll up to check out the dog.  But Iggy would have
none of it, because he thought it would seem strange to just knock on
somebody's door, asking to relieve yourself.  Iggy thought it would
lower his chances of getting the dog.

	By the sixth house, nobody was happy.  There was Iggy,
dogless, there was Bob Stillman, holding his crotch, and there I was,
listening to the both of them whine.  Finally, the last house we came
to was owned by a sixty-three year old blind woman.  Her seeing-eye
dog, an AKC Golden Retriever, had apparently been raped by the Chi Tzu
next-door, leaving her with a truly ugly litter that she could barely
find, let alone sustain.  Iggy was thrilled to see that she was blind,
and almost gave out a "Coo!" when he figured it out.  Without waisting
any time, he went over to one of the newborn pups, decided that it
liked him well enough, handed her the money - and did not cheat her
one dollar, I might add, which might be the temptation when dealing
with the blind - and we got out of there in a hurry with Iggy's new
	What we didn't realize was that Bob Stillman, having reached a
kind of plateau of pain, had also taken advantage of the fact that the
woman was blind by sneaking into her bathroom.  Iggy was so happy to
find a dog, and I was so relieved that I could go home, and Bob
Stillman took such a long time, that we left without him.

	Iggy is fairly happy now that he has a dog.  It's the ugliest
thing I've ever seen in my life.  Iggy doesn't care though, because
the dog likes him too.  Iggy named it "Donaldson," since it kept
sticking its nose in places that it shouldn't be stuck.  Bob Stillman
has not yet told us what happened after we left, but he did have two
bruises on his face the next day.  Maybe someday he'll tell us.

				~~~David D. Urbanski~~~
				"That's no apple dumpling!!" --Chico Marx

[ Thanks for the story, David! -S. ]

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From: "Wade D. Corbett" <??????????????????>
Subject: Havanas - Benchmarking Cigars

Well, folks - I just got back from Toronto where I finally found out
for myself about the Havana Hype.  My purchases included the Montecristo #2,
Romeo y Julieta Churchill, Cohiba Robusto & Esplendido, Simon Bolivar
Corona Gigantes, Partagas Lusitania & Series D #4, and Hoyo de Monterrey
Double Corona - and a few others.  Each cigar that I smoked was quite
different:  I thought the Monty #2 was harsh and overrated.  However,
the Cohiba was without question the very best cigar that I've ever smoked;
it is like smoking creamy chocolate - and it is gorgeous.

To make a long story short, the best place in Toronto to buy cigars is
the Havana House.  They import and distribute Cuban tobacco for all of
Canada.  Ask for Peter Dobbs at the Cumberland St. location, or give him
a call at 416-927-7703.  He may be able to help you plan a tasting.

Please send me e-mail if you have any questions.

Also, to qualify my taste - my favorite house cigar is the Arturo Fuene 8-5-8,
and it's available in claro, natural, and maduro.  All three are quite
different in taste, but have characteristics of coffee with sweet spiciness.
I haven't tried the A. Fuente Canyones, but I think it's similar tobacco,
only in a larger size.  I personally don't like the Hemingways as well -
they burn too quickly being losely rolled, and they have like a nutmeg
spice flavor which is alright, but not as much to my liking as their
Connecticut Shade wrapped smokes.  So, I'd guess you'd say I like a
chocolate coffee cigar that is not harsh or have a bite, has a sweet
spiciness and burns cool, and is a joy to watch burn with a silky wrapper.
IMHO, the 8-5-8 is gorgeous. 

And last night I smoked an Aliados Piramide which was almost like a
torpedo-shaped Cohiba...

[ Great info, Wade! -S. ]

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 )				       *   *				  )
( Pipe smokers will rule the world!      *   ??????????????????????	 (
 ) (if they don't run out of matches...) *   Steve Masticola, moderator	  )
(				       *   *				 (
 U/~ U/~ U/~ U/~ U/~ U/~ U/~ U/~ U/~ U/~ | ~\U ~\U ~\U ~\U ~\U ~\U ~\U ~\U

Article Index

  1. Subject: Pipes Digest #114 - October 5, 1993
  2. Subject: CFV: rec.tobacco
  3. Subject: CFV: talk.politics.smoking
  4. Subject: A story.
  5. Subject: Havanas - Benchmarking Cigars
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